Boom or Bust: Are Fan-Games really a Lost Cause?

[ThatGuyintheCorner]

Salutations, sirs and senoritas. I was browsing through the topics earlier this afternoon when I ran across the particular (and lengthy) thread detailing Mr. NanoTechMonkey’s FFVII sequel – an intriguing concept, in my opinion, that seemed to be otherwise handled with relatively mediocre PR, resulting in the expected “flame” retorts back and forth. The majority of the negative commentary can essentially be summarized, I think, in the direction of “fan games suck” and “do something original.” This concept, however, fascinates me, as fan-created culture has become increasingly popular in the last few years, and fan games (in my opinion) seem like an obvious subgroup to said culture.

Fan art, fan fiction, fan comics – they’re everywhere, as you know. So why not fan-games? It’s a relatively simple question that I’ve been pondering for quite some time, as I don’t see why this shouldn’t be a viable medium of creative expression. After all, I’ve yet to see blatant criticisms of fan artists or fan fiction authors. (I suppose the most obvious counterpoint to this contention would be that fan-games would take much more creative effort than other works; but if that’s the direction someone wishes to focus their time then who are we to argue?)

So, what are your thoughts on the matter? Can fan-games prosper? Or are they, indeed, a lost cause?

(By the way, if you haven’t caught my drift as of yet – I’ve been pondering the concept of a fan-game made with the Rm2k software myself. Also based upon FFVII. I’ve all ready recruited a graphics artist for the project – he does mediocre work, but I’m really not out for an aesthetically brilliant game anyway so that’s not a bother. So I’m kinda’ curious as to just what your opinions on the matter are. Is it worth it? Will you play it? If so, why? Because you think it’d be fun? Because you play everything anyway? Because of morbid curiosity? I’m really in the dark on the matter…)

Thank you, and good day. (Oh yeah, and this is my first post on the forums. Howdy!)

[Tool 666]

Hello, and welcome to the RPG Town! Do hang around...
It's great to see a new townie posting something interesting and/or thoughtful.

Anyway, fan games are good in concept, but the downer is that they are often NOT good in practice. What we ususally end up with is, in all fairness, drivel.
This is why there are so many people against fan games and sequels/prequels, because almost every one that has been released was an absolute flop.
If we actually get some decent ones, i'm reasonally sure that public opinion will swing.
That's just my 2 cents...

[Busterman Zero]

Welcome. RPG Town is for the most part a friendly community...

Fan games usually, emphasis on usually, turn out to be crap. My first two games were fan games and are crap. Some fan games (Book of Three leaps to mind) are excellent. I don't discourage them, but get experience before making one.

Edit:
I forgot to bring this up. My suggestion: never start your RM2K career with a fan game. That's where fan games get their bad rep from. N00bs start by tackling something too difficult. It ruined mine. So Fan Games aren't a lost cause. Just don't try one right away. Look at Lysander. He started with A Blurred Line (He probably made another before it, but I can't be sure), which I'll admit was a good start, then made a great fan game, the Book of Three. We all should follow his example.

[PhotonWeapon]

I think "Final Fantasy: Endless Nova" (NOT Crystal Wings) was one of the only Final Fantasy fangames I really liked, though the difficulty is pretty high. But I don't like to badmouth fangames, considering I've been trying to make one of my own (NOT Final Fantasy).

[celticshiva]

Hello guy in the corner.

I'm going to post my two cents even though I'm pretty much repeating exactly what Tool said.

First of all, welcome to RPG town.

I think, generally, fan games are 'bust'.. but they do have value. It may seem like I'm contradicting myself.. but hear me out.

I personally don't like to play fangames unless they are exceptional (Final Fantasy Crystal Wings and Book of Three come to mind). In this regard fan games are 'bust'. They usually wind up being games that no one wants to play.

Now, as I've said in the thread you are reffering to, I believe that quite a few people who make games for RM2K started out making a 'fan game'. These authors after either discontinuing or finishing their game move on to produce good things. A good example of this is Kamau, who is the author of the Legion Saga series. He had started a FF7 sequel which was pretty good, but he since abandoned it.

I also had started a Final Fantasy offshoot.. not a direct sequal to any game, but I wanted to create a game that used the class system. It went ok, and I had started a CBS before winding up reformatting my hard drive. I learned a LOT while making that CBS, and most of what I learned has carried forward to my current project, Gemini Rising.

So in short, I don't find fan games very enjoyable to play, however they do have their use in providing a 'hands on' tool to learn the system and getting it to do what you want it to do.

[Magi]

Very, very good point. I respect a person like you. I see you've got some very good points in what you're saying, and you're right. Fanfics and fanart for ff7 is everywhere. And why not a fan game? To be honest, one can make a good ff7 sequel. They need experience, and graphics that fit. Though, sadly almost anyone who creates an ff7 sequel is instantly branded as a newbie probably because many newcomers to rm2k create ff7 sequels. They're so common, and usually of such low quality that people won't even give them a look. I'm not saying you can't make a good ff7 sequel, but just from observing your opinions I can tell you're not a newbie to rm2k, so you might be able to pull it off. So now a recap: What most people need to remember, is it takes experience to make a good rm2k game. If you're an experienced, and talented person, you could probably pull off a pretty good ff7 sequel. I would find it hard to do, but that's just my opinion. How bout dropping by once and a while, and tell us how this project is coming along?

[TranceRolin]

Every time that a FFVII sequel is made, a devil gets his horns.

Well, I'm not saying that devils exist, ya know.

[ThatGuyintheCorner]

My apologies – I started this thread at the beginning of midterm week, so I haven’t been able to actively participate. That’s how it goes sometimes, I suppose – sorry about that.

One of the key references that I was going to cite in my original post (but omitted for the sake of convenience of self and reader) seems to have been unexpectedly brought up, though: successful fan games that have broken the stereotype, or even traditional usage of the Rm2k platform – games that have pushed limitations in both technical, aesthetic, and even narrative constituents.

I’m well aware of Mr. Kamau’s “Ancestral Vengeance” – one of the more mainstream fan-games that I first stumbled upon in the summer of 2001, when it was released in its demo format on the doorstep of Don Miguel’s. This piece, though rather clumsily constructed in comparison to Kamau’s later works, introduced several concepts that were previously unrefined in Rm2k – more complex battle animations being one of them (a technique I had seen only once previously before, in the underground title “Tyrant God Saga” by acclaimed recluse Maladroit Him). However, I’m a bit disappointed: after browsing RPG Palace, there doesn’t seem to be any further note of Kamau’s other work “Crisis from the Skies,” an innovative idea that I was looking forward to seeing carried out in the 2k medium.

“The Book of Three,” by Lysander is another fan-game that’s all ready been mentioned – a fan-game that, personally, I overlooked when I originally started this thread. “The Book of Three” was one of the more accepted games, though its critics were harsh in that it didn’t quite live up the high standards of Lysander’s previous work in “A Blurred Line.”

Of course, there are pioneering fan-games that are more than simply trend-starting or stereotype breaking – there are those that push the technical and narrative techniques of Rm2k. Mr. TK’s “Final Fantasy: Crystal Wings” – a fan-game in concept – incorporates advanced technical coding with its CBS and CMS. Mr. Brickroad’s “Maranda,” a work based upon a fan-fiction he had previously written, was essentially a movie produced in Rm2k format, and was in itself an experiment inspired by the fan-“game” tribute, “Final Fantasy VII: Lost Souls,” by Locus. However, each of these has met with mixed reviews – some hate them, others love them.

I’m somewhat surprised, however, that one of the most mainstream, and most acclaimed, fan games has yet to be mentioned: “Nigseck: A Monster’s Tale,” by Sovan Jedi. “Nigsek” was one of the earlier Rm2k accomplishments, though if I recall it was originally a side-project in place of Sovan’s current venture, “Idunn Ymiraldoor.” It pushed the aesthetical capabilities of Rm2k to an extent previously unheard of – a degree that hasn’t been fully explored yet by anyone else. It’s a game of full graphical innovation, which also invested a great deal in its 3-dimensional components – monsters and even full animated movies.

So, there are indeed successful fan-games – many of which have been pioneering endeavors that have contributed to our community, stressing the traditional, breaking the stereotype, and even starting notable trends. But what makes a fan-game unsuccessful? And is it really all that different from an unsuccessful original idea?

(I’m trying to avoid outright stating my personal opinion, though I’m sure you’ve been able to discern it simply from the context of my posts. I’m more interested in keeping the back-and-forth analysis of the subject going at the moment. I’d also like to respond individually to each of your points, but I am still in the midst of midterms, so that’s not gonna’ happen. At least for now. Sorry.)

(Oh yeah! And it’s good to be here, and I’m glad to meet all of ya’!)

[lavalord]

Welcome!

What I say is, feel free to make fan games (or any game in fact) but make sure you know what you are doing. So use proper english (otherwise your game looks very n00bish), keep your characters the same character, make sure your game makes sence after the original game and DON'T make a final fantasy fan game. WAY too overdone.

[celticshiva]

Wow! Guyinthecorner, you certainly do have a well thought out way of looking at things.

Of the games you mentioned that I have not mentioned, I have played very few of. I was not aware that Book of Three and Blurred Line were by the same author.. both very good games. Maranda and Lost souls I have not played.

You mention Nigsek.. while I have not played this game, I'm not sure if it qualifies as a fan game if its based on a work that he is working on.

I would have liked to give these games a look over before responding, but I was unfortunatly unable to find them.

While this is a little off topic, other games that push the aesthetic envelope are Naufragar and Chimira Report. Both are VERY interesting to play as they make use of menus unlike no other game I've seen for RM2K.

[ThatGuyintheCorner]

My apologies, Celtic – I worded that part about “Nigsek” rather poorly. What I meant was that “Nigsek” was a project Sovan Jedi had started as simply something to do while he continued to work out ideas for his other Rm2k endeavor, “Idunn Ymiraldoor.” The projects aren’t related in the least, save for being made by the same guy. “Nigsek” is actually a fan-game based on a fan fiction based on the “Legend of Zelda” series. Sorry I misled you on that one.

And the links:

“Maranda,” by Brickroad: www.maddenworld.com/rpg/Maranda.zip

“Nigsek,” by Sovan Jedi: www.gamingw.net/file/games/NigSek.zip

As for Locus’ “Lost Souls” – I’m unaware if it’s at all available any longer. I have it on my hard drive, however, and if I can’t uncover a link over the weekend I’ll upload it.

I’ve played DGuy’s “Chimera Report” as well, though not “Naufragar” I’ll have to look into that one. “Nigsek” was one of the forerunners of custom graphical experimentation is what I had meant, as well as one of only a select few games to utilize 3-dimensional graphics and even 3d movies. DGuy showed up on the scene some months after with his “DGuy Battle Demo” (featuring the cast of “Chrono Trigger”), then several months after that (maybe even a year? It’s been so long I can’t remember.) with “Chimera Report,” featuring the aforementioned battle system and some of the most appealing graphics I’ve ever seen.

Heh. Actually, an interesting little memory just came to mind. Those that frequented Don’s previous message forum (“World of Rm2k,” I believe, though I think they’ve since renamed it) may remember this. Originally DGuy had intended to continue development of his battle system utilizing the “Chrono Trigger” characters – he even showcased an introductory animation in .gif format. However, we (“we” is relative – though I didn’t actually participate, I was an involved party in that I watched the entire thing unfold) flamed him. DGuy reconsidered his direction and began working with graphics, and nearly a year later we had “Chimer Report.” I suppose, when you think about it then, one could say that “Chimera Report” was almost a fan-game too. I’ll have to dig up that animation – maybe even the original demo, if I still have it. If I do, it’s all on the computer I left at home. Sorry.

[PhotonWeapon]

Well, what about fan-games of action cartoons (and not of commercial RPG games)? And no, I don't mean just Dragon Ball Z...

[ThatGuyintheCorner]

Aha! Now there’s a valid point. What about these other fan games? What about games that aren’t “FF” prequels or sequels or remakes? Where do they fit in all this? That, my friend, is an easy answer, as they too fit the same paradigm that I’ve been chanting from the get-go. I believe that games – be they original or fan-created – are not reflective of their creative stimulus but rather of their creative engineer. It is in that context that I decline to recognize the otherwise obvious differentiations between the two forms. If the game maker works hard, regardless of the origin of their idea, the game will, indeed, be successful. This point is reflective of the evidence that there have been many, many successful fan games – acclaimed as both pioneering in the realms of narration through word and image and truly accomplished masterpieces.

Fan games are simply the unaccepted genre, despite receiving similar accolades and, in some instances, straining beyond the efforts previously exhibited in original works. Though you cited games outside Mr. Toriyama’s “Dragon Ball” universe, I can’t help but reference “DB,” as (aside from “FF”) it’s one of the most widely popular subjects for fan-creation. The majority of fan-games usually utilize custom systems, menu or battle or otherwise. “DB” games are one of the forerunners of system creation, as the general consensus feels that, for an action series, the default system provided by the software simply won’t suffice. Though specific titles escape me, I’m aware of three “DB” fan-games currently in production, each of which utilizes custom systems and another which exhibits some of the most stunningly beautiful custom graphics I’ve seen. There are also games outside this particular universe – games based on the ever popular blue bomber, “Mega Man,” though I haven’t seen consistent updates on any project that involves Capcom’s adorable blue mascot.

This has opened up an interesting idea – fan games outside of the role-playing game genre. Thus far all that’s been covered are those based in the Rm2k medium. What about those outside this field? What about those fan-games that are made 100% from scratch? Engine and all? There are two prominent ones that I can think of – the “Unofficial Chrono Trigger 2” project, and another project that seeks to recreate the elder “Castlevania” platformers using updated, fan-made graphics and engine. Where do these fit in to everything? And are their efforts – above and beyond anything that we may strive to accomplish with Rm2k – misguided as well?

(By the way, I’ll try and locate the links to those two project tomorrow. My apologies.)

[AdamC4]

I'd like to say welcome, and there's no need to be apologising, you've certainly made an impact. It's great to see someone with thought provoking questions, and well thought out answers, and with such a great grasp of the English language. Good luck to you.