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Post by ObviousDelirium on Aug 25, 2003 13:49:42 GMT -5
SPOILERS:
There's something I find strange in LS3,if Dansa dies and Avalon collapse,how can the Genryu(I think that's it,haven't played in a while) live?I mean,the god of life and death is destroyed,and Avalon,where the gods stayed,fell,that means no balance in the world,no life,no death,how can they live after that? Same when Lisa sacrifice herself to destroy Avalon,since Avalon is destroyed after that.
END OF SPOILERS.
That's what I'm wondering.
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Post by devilmaycare150 on Aug 25, 2003 20:17:31 GMT -5
..The Genryu were not Dansa's target, the human's and subsequently, the kobolds were drawn into the battle through their interaction with the humans. The Orogai were the race he originally created, and when the human's destroyed them, he started getting pissed. Osten somehow got his oracular powers somewehere around this point, and wrote the Prophecy of the Legions. As time waned on, Dansa for some unknown reason, didn't simply unleash his wrath then and there and destroy the humans. More than likely because the other gods disapporoved his tactics, but if this is the case, why did they allow him to go so far in LS3? Perhaps the Fate is a stronger being than even the Gods..anyway, I'll skip the crap and go to the shorter version; Dansa only wishes to elimenate the beings he deems unworthy, and a potential threat to the planet, and the Gods themselves. In a way, I've always pitied him, he had good intentions; a interesting little comparison would be between him and FF7's holy. Destroying the threats to the planet, whether that means humanity's destruction..is up to them. Basically, the Genryu are not viewed as a dangerous species, because they live so closely to the earth; in a spiritual way I mean. Whereas, the humans and kobolds really just don't give a d**n in short. Somewhere along the way, Dansa's good intentions at heart, became warped, distorted in a way. I still believe despite the deaths made by his hands, he only wanted the best for the planet, and himself. And after all, if the God's created humans, that gives them the right to do whatever they wish to them..does it not? They are their Creators, and therefore..their masters of destiny..
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Post by ObviousDelirium on Aug 25, 2003 23:15:05 GMT -5
I'm not talking about Dansa only,you see,Avalon is destroyed,Avalon is where the gods lived,a god on the surface of the world is mortal and I don't think they still have their powers they had as gods,that means no balance or anything,that's what I meant,how can they live without balance and other things?Same for humans when Lisa sacrifice herself to destroy Avalon.
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Ein
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Post by Ein on Aug 26, 2003 5:34:21 GMT -5
The theology of a video game I am a dork!. Maybe it's just that the gods in LS aren't the origonators of the force of existance, but mearly able to controll specific aspects of it. Much in the same way scientists create new species of plants and animals. They didn't create the genetic material, mearly built upon what was existing. Or heck, even more to the point, maybe the gods of LS are just beings able to access Magical powers available only through constant compact with the "pure" avalon, hence the reason that to some degree they become able to take over for Dansa's role.
I kinda don't think Dansa had the power to just say "Bang, you're dead" and destroy humanity, and I don't think he'd try and resurect the Orogai (maybe Xaertrix was a resurected Orogi born to ready the world for the comming of Dansa who feared the prophacy?)
Dansa needed Barbatta, because while Dansa couldn't retain his powers on earth, he could imbue a weapon with the full essance of his being, and draw a human to wield the power. This would also explain the years of Hybernation, if Barbata were a man of indominible will it might take even a "god" in the sense i described before to conquer his will completely.
Then we have an enraged Dansa awakening upon the world in time to witness the fruition of the second Legion, his foreward minion having failed to stem the tide of the prophecy he blindly removes Argane from his path focused entirely upon Nastra, who at the time is the soul embodiment of the Prophacy of Legions.
er.. yea anyway, i'll shut up now.
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ACB, "Alexa"
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Post by ACB, "Alexa" on Aug 27, 2003 21:35:29 GMT -5
Wow! Someone actually read my fanfic!
Well, on the topic. Only Kamau can answer this for sure, but here is my theory, which will form some of the back story of one of the characters in a gaiden game I've been thinking of, the Kamza one I've mentioned before, focusing on the life of the famous Meluvetian general up untill his *SPOILER* untimely demise in Leviathan's dwelling. *END SPOILER*
Anyway, my theory is that the prophecy was thrown of balance by Barbatta when he killed Argane. Of course, for Nastra to fulfil his part of the Legion Prophecy, he needed to kill Argane. He didn't. Barbatta did. So, theorecticaly, the torch can't be passed on to Kima, although things worked out differently.
The next part of my theory is that King Zogoran of Higanasu changed after that fatefull day in Sai Geradon cause after word got out about Barbatta, it was a kick in the teeth for the world and Zogoran realised that humanity was up against something big and Highland had to pull itself together, bringing an quick end to the civil war, some of which WAS thanks to one Edda Roshgarde, however, I believe Zogoran had some influence here, as he was more willing to bring unity to Higanasu as he might have done, had Barbatta not stepped in at Sai Geradon
Anyways, imagine if the Higanasu civil war went on for another 12 years. Some sort of rebellion would arise eventually, led of course, by the third legion master, Kima. Kima and the rebellion would defeat Zogoran and the various other factions just in time to see the recently reawakened Barbatta wreak havoc on the world alongside the four elemental titans. Of course, Kima isn't in a state to fight them off. He's just finished restoring peace to Higanasu. The army is small. Also, Nastra is having a little trouble of his own- Xi Yung. Yep, Xi's a little peeved over the county borders, and is ready to fight Nastra for nce. Ridman's having a little trouble too. Barbatta's just set off the kobolds on an unsuspeting twin empire. Its not too far fetched to assume the Dragon Knights and Harbrynd are having trouble with the demons as well. In short, Berrylusir as a whole isn't in a state to fight and the world is quickly laid to rubble by Dansa's army. All is lost. All because the world wasn't warned. But it was. Barbatta inadvertantly did that at Sai Geradon. The question is, why did events go differently to how Osten predicted?
Anyway, there's a lot of stuff I want to to sort out when I finallly get my new computer off insurence in another 2 months, (I'm currently at an internet cafe) so it may be a while before I finished that fanfic. Such things include a Rm2k game of my own I want to make, the Kamza gaiden, and a few other fanfics. I'm quite interested in this whole topic, so I've put a lot of thought into that theory. There's more if you want to hear it, but it doesn't relate totally to the Barbatta/Argane topic, so Ii didn't mention it before.
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Ein
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Post by Ein on Aug 27, 2003 23:07:02 GMT -5
see, that doesn't espcially work because the 2nd legion had already been formed in full. It didn't matter who killed Argane at that point. There were only two men who could have been killed to prevent nastra and the formation of his legion.
Route 1 would have been if Kaiser Granstem had been killed by hands other then Nastra's. If Nastra hadn't had to of fled to Krisdea he would have never met Fuba and subsquintly joined the Rebbellion agains the councile which led to Jendri's death and Nastra's rise to leader and status as the second legion master.
Route 2 would have been to Kill Rautzen before his death squads manage to kill Jendri, because if Gendri hadn't died and Rautzen had, Nastra would have probably just ended up a General in Jendri's newly united Krisdea. Which, seeing as how Jendri was portraid would probably have quickly made the move to invade Veramonde and been slaughtered. Leaving the country vulnerable to attack from both Liu Yao and Veremonde, which would lead to yet another war.
As for Zogoran and the Roshgards having been effected by the comming of barbatta, I don't really think so, as no one was allowed to enter Higanasu during that time because of the Highland Civilwar, and no one from the Highlands with strong ties to anyone in power fought in the war I doubt anyone outside of those who were actually there or were an advisor/confidant would even know about it.
Hmm... how many legions in the prophacy were there again? like 12?
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Post by devilmaycare150 on Aug 28, 2003 17:50:13 GMT -5
::)12? There's only #!
Anyway, the fact is, I just can't understand it. Argane is supposed to be killed by Nastra, not Barbatta. But still..
Why does it matter!?
As I said before, death is death! Whether it comes from a sword filled with evil purposes and a over zealous god's beliefs or just a regular guy who isn't too much of a hero himself doesn't matter! I simply do not understand what difference it could have made in the prophecy; and if it made the differnce that ACB brought out in his fanfic, then Barbatta/Dansa screwed themselves. And I'm pretty d**n sure Dansa, a god, isn't going to not realize what reprucussions this could do. It should also be noted at how dumb, for a god, Dansa truly was. I mean COME ON! Don't go after a Legion Master out of nowhere in a castle he knows his enemies are! Sneak up on him..at least plant seeds of doubt in his army..let them grow into rebellion and produce fruit of deciet and chaos..
It seems god's are far from perfection themselves, Dansa wasn't stupid..just too sure of himself..
ACB has forgotten something though, Kima destroyed Avalon, with what seemed like only a regular sized army. Plus, if there was a disaster against all of the world, I think Harbyrnd, Lu Yiao, as well as the equation of both Veramonde, and that other country you left out would easily be able to blow it out of the sky. If a small army can do it, a combined force would devestate it with ease. Another thing, Kima ascended the throne of Highland fairly quickly, and still managed to destroy Avalon..so you can't say it would really stop the prophecy..
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Post by SickAndWretched on Aug 28, 2003 18:07:53 GMT -5
But if you think about it.. Nastra did indirectly kill Argane. becuase Barbatta killed Argane so Nastra couldn't and hoping that it would stop the prophency, thereby actaully making the prophency so due to a technicality.. But if he killed Argane with out any reason other then to make Argane dead. Now if Sazaku killed Argane instead then the prophency would have been undone and then whatever the result of that would of happened.. y'know prophencies are strange like that.. .. hmm.. I think to much..
And in LS3, Avalon doesn't fall in the one ending.. Dansa is just casted out like Valmont. y'know..
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Post by ObviousDelirium on Aug 28, 2003 19:09:58 GMT -5
I'm talking about the bad endings,not the good ones.
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Ein
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Posts: 22
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Post by Ein on Aug 28, 2003 22:59:45 GMT -5
Where does it say that the specific reason that the 2nd legion was formed was to kill argane? It doesn't all thats said about the legions in game is that they'll exist. The second legion already existed, and no matter what happend to argane Veramonde and Krisdea had been restored to pre-tyrant rule. To me, the general theme of the legions seems to be that each time one is formed they restore one of the what? 17 domains of Berylisur? Thats the only thing that even remotely ties Legion's together. Nastra and Riddman fought to free their countires from evil and corrupt leaders. Kima didn't fight for any such lofty goal. You can't even really say he became a legion master untill he comes to power.
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ACB, "Alexa"
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Post by ACB, "Alexa" on Aug 31, 2003 22:56:38 GMT -5
Hiya again guys!
Right, first things first- My fanfic is set after the GOOD ending assuming the following-
*SPOILER*
1. Kima kills Eijin at Avalon and Barbatta lives.
2. You recruited everyone in LS3.
Now, if you paid attention to LS2's ending, you'll realise that Ridley managed to get past the Higanasu border cause he helped write up the peace treaty for the Highland, so that means that word of Barbatta got through to Higanasu. Also, the only reason the demon armies stopped so soon was cause Kima's army went to Avalon and rooted out all evil by fighting Dansa, after which Ysud and the other gods booted him out of Avalon like they did Valmot. Another point, made by Ein, is that Kima's mission was different from Ridman and Nastra's. He fought against Dansa's demons, not against a corrupt leader.
New paragraph. There are also a few points I forgot to mention last time. First- Remember the scene with the Fire Titan at Milamo. The Titan calls Kima "an anomaly", meaning he shouldn't exist. This is because he wasn't supposed to have become a Legion Master because of Barbatta's actions at Sai Geradon. Hhowever, Kima had already been born by that point, and still had his Legion Master status, contrary to Barbatta's theory. Second, the reason I think that the Day of the Ragnarok would have come, had Barbatta not jumped the gun at Sai Geradon, is cause, as I said, Beryllusir wouldn't have had a warning. So, as you said my theory suggested, Barbatta and Dansa DID screw themselves. OK, OK, the wars would have fulfilled Dansa's wish for the of humans to an extent, but why then did Barbatta kill Argane as an attempt to stop the prophecy from coming to pass. Think about this quote from Barbatta- "The wars must continue, your numbers must decrease", or something like that. In fact, the wars would continue if Barbatta DID kill Argane. Also, the demons could do a better job than any corrupt leader ever could. As for Avalon, it's the city of the gods for cripes sake. You couldn't shoot it down with mere cannons, so no amount of man made firepower could do it, so yes, according to my presumed alternate timeline, humanity would have perished.
That's all that comes to mind at the moment.
MOD EDIT: Add friggen Spoiler notices! >_<
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Post by MaduinB on Sept 2, 2003 20:10:57 GMT -5
Firstly, as is, the third LS game is not meant to be beaten with the best ending..
The Prophecy of Legions says, "There's going to be some legions, and they'll defeat Dansa." The game clearifies some of the points at various times. A prophecy goes like this: a god sort of alters the dimensions of space so that no other outcome can exist. It is impossible to defy a prophecy, because one would be defying to laws that rule the universe. However, gods themselves are not bound by prophecies, and once a prophecy is broken, it's fairly null. The prophecy was not that 'Nastra would become a Legion Master". That was part of the prophecy, but not the whole of it. The prophecy itself simply aided the humans in the defeat of Dansa.
As to the gods getting killed off when Avalon is destroyed.... The gods live in Upper Realm. Their HQ, which I assume is made by Dansa since he seems to reign there (with his titans and all), is Avalon. The gods don't need Avalon. Dansa probably used Avalon as a focal point though, and thus he may not have been able to leave it.
Also, the gods are all pretty much equal in potential power. Not all of them are equally skilled. They all have individual personalities, likes/dislikes, and theologies. They are not omnipotent, nor omniscient. Dansa is considered to be the "god of life and death" because he created humans and orogai. As the progenitor of the mortals, he is the only god with the ability to destroy them, at his whim.
So, why didn't he kill the legion masters and their legionnaires? Because of the prophecy. The prophecy was created by another god, and changed the mortals themselves. Thus, the legion masters and legionnaires could only be willed to death by both of the gods who had designed their fate. Remember when Marael gets turned to rubble, and everyone is gone, except for the legionnaires and stuff? Yeah.
Question: So... Why did Victor and whats his face die?
Answer: They.. uh.. were in the castle when it evaporated. They fell to their deaths.
Retort: That sounds like a lie.
Apology: Yeah. Pretty much.
Anyway.. uhm.. I'm curious if the orogai lost their power when Dansa became mortal. I'm sure there were at least a few left. I'm just saying this, because of idle speculation that the orogai's powers come from the ability to tap into the patterns that Dansa had created in the world and form whatever they wanted from them, as if they were gods in their own rights.
This speculation was brought to you by the BBC. Respect our authority.
-Maduin Branford
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Post by devilmaycare150 on Sept 6, 2003 10:18:15 GMT -5
..The Legionnaires are regular people..but what makes the Legion Master's different is something a bit more complicated..I personally believe, that the Legion Master's are simply the focal point of the people's currents hopes and dreams. That's what makes them somewhat stronger I guess, maybe that's what made Dansa's Master Blaster only hit the Legion Master's in the final battle..
..And another thing; Dansa didn't become mortal. If he was mortal, he would've lost his powers, and would've meant he would've been cast down; much like Valmot.
The Legion Masters simply had to kill him on his own home turf..
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Post by MaduinB on Sept 6, 2003 15:32:38 GMT -5
I'm fairly sure that, if you get the good ending, you're told that Dansa will finally be punished for his arrogance by being cast down as a mortal. But then again, I'm not encredibly sure. What I assume happened on Avalon was that the combined strength of the Legions diminished most of Dansa's power, but since Dansa was still a god who had the ether of the Upper Realm to sustain him, did not die. But in such a state it would be a trifle for the other gods to give him the boot. Notice the terms "mortal" and "immortal"? When I hear the term immortal, I usually think of ever-lasting life, and not "life eternal until killed" like a highlander. That sort of terminology dispute could only be cleared up by an official source, like a passage from the game, or Kamau himself, which I doubt he'd do. He'd ruin some poor shmuck's free time, who had nothing better to do than think idly. Like me. -Maduin Branford
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aaa11
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Post by aaa11 on Aug 15, 2008 20:17:25 GMT -5
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