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Post by Suikodenmad2003 on Nov 7, 2002 18:42:24 GMT -5
M Paul: I have to disagree. *prepares to be vanquished* As I've said, I don't believe in God; just an afterlife. I don't believe this because of a 'fear factor' - in fact, I'm not scared of death, whether there is life after it or not. For a few years I thought that once you die, well...game over. Even back then I wasn't afraid of death. Why would someone be frightened of the one thing in life that we know is inevitable?
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Post by PaulC on Nov 7, 2002 19:18:35 GMT -5
Why would someone be frightened of the one thing in life that we know is inevitable? Inevitable though it may be, it can still be extremely difficult for many people to accept. If everyone in an organized religion was as comfortable with death as they claim to be, funerals would not be such gloomy affairs.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 8, 2002 22:02:23 GMT -5
That's what I was talking about.
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Post by Cereal Hunter on Nov 9, 2002 22:12:18 GMT -5
I am a true Christian. I truly, truly, truly, love God.
He is the greatest.
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Zone
RPG Townie
Posts: 181
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Post by Zone on Nov 9, 2002 22:25:14 GMT -5
I am a true catholic(and/or christan). I beleive God, created the earth and humans and everything. God is a wondeful er....bieing, and I love him. How else could this beautiful earth and complex things come to existance. Yes, people born live and die. If people did not die Earth would be too crowded. I ask God for things, like information. He gives it to me. A ask him for a time machine....he dosent. Another issue comes to mind, Aliens. Nobody have seen them. Why do you think? God only created us as in Genesis (Bible). Paul C, majin paul. I hope you change your mind. Also, put it this way. If you beleive, if he does exist and it is true you are not going to hell. If it is not, it does not count against you.
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Nov 10, 2002 2:27:22 GMT -5
So every Christian says of themselves, while marking others as false Christians and such. Why should anyone accept your subjective view on an objective basis?
There are children that exist who truly, truly, truly love Santa Claus. This doesn't make Santa real. Neither does it work for you and your god.
Perhaps you could define what you mean by "god", then state how your belief is falsifible, and then provide evidence such a thing exists at all.
In addition, last I remember, there exists plenty of good theories involving the origin of earth and humans, none of which need to invoke a god. Face it, the principle of parsimony leaves no room for such. In addition, what makes you think the universe needs to be created? Are you also forgetting the Conservation of Energy and Matter?
I suggest checking out a science book. In addition, what makes you think things came from nothing? Last I remember, the basis of the Cosmological argument rests upon the notion that something cannot come from nothing. If that's the case, creation ex nihilo is meaningless. In addition, remember the little bit of science that goes "matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but change form"? Finally, your question presupposes causal processes, which in turn presuppose existence. As such, your question is quite meaningless.
Not if an omnipotent creator figure decided otherwise. Funny how quickly one discards omnipotence for convience.
Perhaps you could clarify?
*chuckles* Firstly, there are no credible documentations of aliens (there's plenty of people who will claim to have seen aliens and so forth). However, it is possible that we just haven't encounter such yet (and given how big the universe is, that's not too surprising). Do I believe aliens exist? It's possible, but I cannot say one way or the other. Like hypotheses of science, one can only adopt a "wait-and-see" attitude, and see if evidence comes to support the claim.
Pascal should have stuck to mathematics. Firstly, if you are believing in Catholicism due to that bit of reasoning, you're believing for purely selfish reasons. Are you going to tell us that Christianity is purely a religion of self-interest in fear, in the sense that one only is a believer to save oneself from the "fires of hell"?
Secondly, such an argument brushes reason aside to say to offer a pragmatic reason for belief. However, one can easily say "If you believe in god, you will go to hell. If you don't believe in god, you'll go to heaven." You might say such is pure assumption, but that is precisely the point. You are ASSUMING what you want, in which case I can rebut with the opposite assumptions, and because Pascal's wager says reason cannot decide, there is no means to evaluate either position.
In addition, Islam says Christians go to hell. According to your own reasoning, shouldn't you become a Muslim? After all, you wouldn't want to not believe in Allah, since he might exist, and then you'll go to hell!
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Post by Cereal Hunter on Nov 10, 2002 10:06:34 GMT -5
I'm really not gonna read all that. I'm really not...
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Zone
RPG Townie
Posts: 181
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Post by Zone on Nov 10, 2002 10:44:23 GMT -5
The point is not to beleive in god. It is to ask Jesus to save you from hell. He died for us. Sleepy, I'm not mad at you, but read the bible...just once. Yo might change your mind. Same for all you other guys too.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 10, 2002 12:05:16 GMT -5
The point is not to beleive in god. It is to ask Jesus to save you from hell. He died for us. Sleepy, I'm not mad at you, but read the bible...just once. Yo might change your mind. Same for all you other guys too. Do you have any evidence that jesus 'died for us'? I do not regard the bible as a legitimate source, due to its many contradictions and innacuracies. Oh, and I HAVE read the bible, and SleepyTemplar knows more about it than any Christian I've ever met.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 10, 2002 12:18:12 GMT -5
Amusing as it is, athiests on an average seem to know alot more about the bible then Christians.
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Post by Mana Hero on Nov 10, 2002 13:16:28 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]I believe in God. Wanna know why? I don't think that one day, monkeys had magically turned human! As some dude on Cowboy Bebop said:"God didnt create humans, Humans created God."[/glow]
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Post by PaulC on Nov 10, 2002 13:21:05 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]I believe in God. Wanna know why? I don't think that one day, monkeys had magically turned human! As some dude on Cowboy Bebop said:"God didnt create humans, Humans created God."[/glow] Oh god, not the 'evilution nevar happened ROFLOLMAO!!!1' argument again. Go get a decent scientific education and the open-mindedness neccessary to think logically. And while you're at it, try finding a quote that actually supports your beliefs as opposed to contradicting them.
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Nov 10, 2002 15:26:08 GMT -5
Congrats Cereal Hunter. You've shown that understanding the position of others on a matter, as well as considering the possibility that you are wrong, or looking at contrary evidence means little to you. I'm an ex-Christian, for one, and have read the Bible several times. Although it does include some historical aspects, this does not mean it came from a god, especially with the contradictions, errors, and barbaric morality present in it. You once again present the idea that your belief is based on self-interest and fear. In order for such a threat to work, one must first believe in your hell. It has no convincing power over one who doesn't believe you. In addition, Proverbs 21:3 says that it is better for justice and judgment to be done, as opposed to sacrifice. That would rule out any idea of a suffering Messiah who dies for mankind's sins. Plus, Jesus never fulfilled the Messiahanic prophecies. Try reading the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammpada, the Rig Veda, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Zend Avesta, and the plethora of other religious texts. You might change *YOUR* mind. As C pointed out, that quote would contradict your own belief. In addition, that quote originates from Voltaire, if I remember right. Now, in regards to your strawman of evolutionary theory. Can you name one *CREDIBLE* scientist who says that? Only someone with a complete lack of understanding of evolution could make such a statement (which is why ignorant Creationists love to use Hoyle's quote that "evolution is like a whirlwind going through a junkyard and assembling a 747 Boeing"). As C suggested, try learning about science before you try to bash it. In fact, I'll be nice enough to give you some sites to help. www.talkorigins.org - Very in-depth cite that deals with evolution. www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9917/evolution/evolution-for-beginners.html - Very basic presentation of evolution.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 10, 2002 15:33:19 GMT -5
Of course, a Chrisitan could stick "God did this" or "God made that" at the end of any theory or scientific law, sadly... Not that it means anything, I'm just saying they could.
Big Bang? God did it. Evolution? God did it.
Which makes it even harder to cram logic into their brains.
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Tool 666
RPG Townie
Remember, we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion...
Posts: 130
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Post by Tool 666 on Nov 12, 2002 5:34:35 GMT -5
Does anyone every speculate about the origins of the CHURCHES?
Church Theory #1: The Catholic Church started as a cult following and attempting to emulate a local hero (that being "Jesus Christ"), and soon grew into a small religeon. They popularised and then embellished his actions. After a few decades, the religeon was spreading, and the original group saw this as an opportunity to gain power and status in the world. However, there were a few different factions within this group, and they each split off and established themselves as the leaders of these new faiths (explaining why Chirstianity, Judaisim and Islam all consider Jerusalem to be their holy city).They sent "emmisaries" and "preists" to distant places in an attempt to gain an influx of new members. Centureis later, their infulence extended over most of Europe, and they began to consolidate their control by preying on the people's fears. You all know the rest.
Conclusion: The Catholic Church was a scheme whereby a group of people and their decendants could get rich quick, but spread far further and grew far larger than those who concieved it could anticipate.
Anyone feel like posting other theories?
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