Ricky-K
RPG Townie
You were afraid to live but now you are afraid to die...
Posts: 210
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Post by Ricky-K on Mar 23, 2003 9:00:54 GMT -5
That person goes to hell because they did not ask Jesus into their heart, I know it sounds creul but thats the way it is.
Because someone believes in Jesus doesnt mean they get to heaven, they need to ask him into their heart (by praying somthing along the lines of "I admit i am a sinnner, please come into my heart and save me") should he have asked Jesus into his heart then he would still get into heaven but he would not be as... honoured.
Again I say, if im right your wrong we die, I go to heaven you go to hell. Your right Im wrong (which I know Im not) nothing happens to either of us.
if you say "But living a life as a chrisitian is boring" then you clearly dont look long and hard at a true, young, christian. We are almost the same as you, we have friends, favorite sports, we go to the cinema, we watch TV, Play computer games. The only thing that would VERY different would be the way we talk and act, when you ask Jesus into your heart everything changes. A while ago, I fell out with friends of mine who wernt chrisitians, I fell into somthing like a depression, untill I prayed for a good, christian friend that would have alot in common a week after I became friends with a girl called Karen (shes on these boards as Karen702)
God will provide for you if you become a chiristian.
My dad has a summer camp which he uses to preach to unsaved children, he has been doing it for 14 years. It started to get really hard for him to hold the camp each year, he prayed to God that if God wanted him to continue running the camp then God would save 2 souls. 2 people got saved.
Those stories are true, even ask Karen702 when shes next on if I can get her out of Lurker mode.
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Mar 23, 2003 23:08:40 GMT -5
I'm surprised to see this thread revived. Since you appear interested in discussing this topic, Ricky, I'm game.
You forgot the lake of fire, too.
Do you consider torture a morally just action, Ricky?
Didn't we already go over Pascal's Wager?
Pascal begins in the Pensees that reason cannot determine whether or not god exists, and because of this is it better to believe than not (for the forementioned reasons you list). The problems with this argument is numerous. First, this argument, if sound, would only make your entire belief inherently selfish, since anyone who believes upon the wager is doing it purely to escape punishment and gain pleasure. Last I remember, Christians didn't openly ascribe to a hedonic motivation. I suppose it is also moot as to whether an all-knowing god, seeing that you're believing for selfish reasons, would be happy with such a thought.
Second, the argument arbitrarily presents a form of deity for the argument. Suppose I claim that a god exists that if you believe in it in this life, you go to the equivalent of the Christian hell, but if you don't, then you earn the equivalent of the Christian heaven. According to the same reasoning of the wager, this would mean that you should be an atheist. If you claim "foul" to such reasoning, then you deny the main premise of the wager: that reason cannot determine whether or not god exists, as you are saying that my claim is not true, but yours is. If you do such, you destroy the entire basis of the wager.
In addition, the Qur'an says you, Ricky, are going to hell (Surah 5:44-46). Therefore, according to your reasoning, you should become a Muslim "just in case".
Perhaps you also notice that you don't consider the Islam example a serious threat because you don't believe in Islam. If this is the case, then I trust you can deduce that if you must first believe in Islam before you can consider the Islam concept of hell a threat, then the same holds true for Christianity. Unless one accepts Christianity as true, the Christian concept of hell holds no threat in one's mind.
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Mar 23, 2003 23:25:23 GMT -5
At this point you should be able to notice that salvation isn't based upon morality in Christianity, Wum. The typical claim is that "there are none who are good" (Psalms 14:3, and Romans 10 or 11), which allows for them to not be troubled by the idea of "innocent" people suffering. Ricky might consider it cruel, but fails to understand that it is a cruel concept because it goes against any decent concept of morality. To say that god is above morality as we know is to make morality incoherent. A historic Jesus, or Jesus as divine? What is this "power" that compels people to help others? Your way of presenting such hints at a supernatural element to it, when no such thing is needed. People are usually "good" for different reasons (and by that I mean that most people have been conditioned to accept certain objective moral standards), ranging from simplistic pain/pleasure motivation to a genuine empathy of a universal to a particular (Kohelburg's moral stages is a good example). Sounds like Nirvana. Of course, the problem is that Buddhism holds that there is no permanence to anything, even the atman, or "soul". I have several friends who are Christians, agnostics, atheists, and so on. I don't find it difficult to accept people based upon their beliefs, even if I disagree with them. I should point out that the "Jesus changes your actions" is a double-edged sword. Sure, it can make people more altruistic (for wrong reasons, I would argue), but it can ALSO make people deranged killers (Andrea Yates), hatemongers (Godhatesf*gs.com, KKK, etc), and bigots. The "ah, but they aren't TRUE Christians" is simply the standard No True Scotsman fallacy. You know, it's usually not hard for people to make friends. Especially a Christian friend if you go to a church. And even if you didn't meet at a church, the odds are that in the U.S. (assuming you live there) most you meet are Christians. It's quite amazing what Christians cite as answered prayers when they either A) create a self-fulfilling prophecy, or B) appeal to ignorance. Unless thou is starving in Africa, or a victim of a bombing in Middle East conflicts, and so on, in which case thine self is out of luck. *cough cough* Self-fulfilling prophecy *cough cough*
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Post by Mr. Fangora (Wum) on Mar 24, 2003 0:09:57 GMT -5
Sleepy Templar: I'm not sure whether I believe in God actually more than Jesus. I accept that in history there was a person named Jesus and I believe that he strove to help people. I'm not sure about his divinity though.
About that power of good. I'm not hinting that there's some strange entity or anything hovering about spreading joy and happiness everywhere. I'm talking in the same sense as air, happiness and thoughts. They do exist. We just can't see them. I can sum up what I think about 'good' in one sentence. We're all in this together.
Ricky: I find that view quite harsh. I'm not trying to sound mean or anything but what about those people who lived in times where the preachings of god were not available to them. Only the Jewish were deemed worthy to be accepted to heaven?
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Mar 24, 2003 1:50:59 GMT -5
Uh, air is made up on various molecules that can be detected. Happiness is an emotion that can be detected through behavior patterns and physiological changes. Thoughts can be detected via the workings of the brain.
Good and evil are directly related the to consequences of an action, which simply requires considering an action as one a fellow should pursue for benefit and an action one should avoid to escape harm.
Based on what?
Actually, there are different positions in Judaism on life after death, but one of the more common ones of the OT is that Sheol, the concept of hell in the OT, is synonymous with the grave. It's only with the NT that we get a hell of torture.
Oh, and Christianity has the "but not everyone has heard of Christianity!" objection covered. Romans 1:26-30, if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by Mr. Fangora (Wum) on Mar 24, 2003 3:02:41 GMT -5
Looks like I've got some reading to do..
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Post by Sanovarak on Mar 28, 2003 14:06:07 GMT -5
Ooh. SleepyTemplar impressed me again.
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Meow
RPG Townie
I'm evil. I'm also a cat. I'm an evil cat!
Posts: 223
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Post by Meow on Mar 29, 2003 0:37:42 GMT -5
I think death is just....dying. Like eternal paralysis of the whole body, like sleep. Only just that you don't notice it. You don't go anywhere, just whisp out of existence. (I don't think I wanna say this) I don't think there's a Heaven or Hell. How would going where be decided. If you do one thing that most people think is good, maybe it affects others negatively. We will never TRULY understand death until we suffer it, and once you know what it is, you regret to think that you won't be able to tell your friends about it because you're dead, and you can't use your body.
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Post by Shiguru Wazzat on Mar 29, 2003 4:54:00 GMT -5
i'm not gonna do one of those really long sleepy templar sized posts, just my theory..
I think, that when you die, whatever you think is going to happen to you happens. For example:
Example 1: A man is a complete sinner. He is a murderer, a rapist, he hates everyone, he beats people up all the time, steals, kidnaps, but he believes that he'll go to heaven - when he dies, he'll go.
Example 2: A man is very holy - he's a reverand, he donates to all charities, he contributes to oxfam, he works at the hospital but he is worried about going to hell. He believes he is going to hell because he didn't do enough good work in his life - when he dies, he goes to hell.
What I personally think, is that when you die, you'll spend the same amount of time in heaven or hell than the time you lived, then you get reborn (example - lived to 30, got run over, dies, goes to heaven for 30 years. reborn, dies at 70, goes to hell for 70 years, is reborn). Heaven is everything you love and like about life, and everyone and everything you know and like is there. Hell is the exact opposite.
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Meow
RPG Townie
I'm evil. I'm also a cat. I'm an evil cat!
Posts: 223
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Post by Meow on Mar 29, 2003 21:54:02 GMT -5
My gut feeling tells me that Shigaru's thoughts are correct, but my brain tells me that most replies here don't make sense, including mine. In shorter terms, I don't get it...
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Post by Nuno on Apr 12, 2003 19:55:28 GMT -5
Im fine with Heaven and Hell thing... I just wonder one thing... If Heaven its the best place to rest for our eternity, there are pcs with broadband connections right?
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Post by The Jacket on Apr 12, 2003 20:57:08 GMT -5
How did I miss this topic?
Well, I suppose I'll start by saying what I believe happens after death.
When one dies, I believe that they are immediately in the presence of God. If the deceased accepted Christ into their heart during their lifetime - that person will go to (Third) Heaven. But if that person did not accept Christ in their lifetime, I believe they are sent to Hell.
Yes, I am aware that certain questions will arise. No, I do not claim to be able to answer them all.
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Apr 13, 2003 1:01:09 GMT -5
I've always thought you were about to jump in, Jacket! Anyhow, since you didn't provide anything to support your position, I will kindly point out that your entire claim rests upon simple belief, which is no more helpful in proving it true that a Hindu's belief in moksha. As a materialist, I rely on more than belief if you try to claim the same of me.
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Post by The Jacket on Apr 13, 2003 1:59:15 GMT -5
What would you find as "support" for a belief?
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Apr 13, 2003 2:20:05 GMT -5
Sound deductive arguments coupled with falsifible empirical evidence that is repeatable. That, of course, is what we use to argue whether something is true. If we're talking about whether we have justification in holding a belief (since very rarely can we outright prove things, and in the matters of the mind-body debate there is no conclusive proof that materialism is true, although a good bit of evidence does suggest this), it's simply a consideration of the burden of proof, Occam's razor, open-mindedness, and looking at the evidence. If we consider justification only, it is possible for both dualists and materialists to be justified in their beliefs, but only one can be right.
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