nanotechmonkey
RPG Townie
First you get the monkey, then you get the drugs
Posts: 22
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Post by nanotechmonkey on Jul 13, 2004 6:03:13 GMT -5
Well we all hate FF7 sequels (or so we say) for some reason or another and so I've decided to try to find out why. So here we go.
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Maxy
RPG Townie
Posts: 187
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Post by Maxy on Jul 13, 2004 9:02:57 GMT -5
There are very good reasons why FF sequels do not work, but it isn't possible to stick all the reasons into one of your categories - it is a combination of many you have listed.
Let's start at the beginning. Fangames are almost exclusively made by newbies. When someone gets RPG Maker they think "Wow, I can make a game just like X". Of course, as newbies they are incapable of creating a game worth playing. This is just the first rung. We hate fan games because there are more newbies than experienced game makers and we see their shoddy FF sequels time and time again, far more than original work or something that looks good. It isn't just limited to FF though, Zelda, Dragonball Z and Pokémon are following suit. The worst part of the Final Fantasy fan game trend is that the most popular game to sequel is FF7. How can a game that featured 3D graphics and superbly done backdrops be translated into a 2D tilebased game? The answer is it can't. It doesn't matter how talented the maker is, it is just not possible. What can be done is a sequel to earlier games, like FF4, 5 and 6: these would be ideal, especially as all the graphics are readily available. This should, in theory, make it possible to great a sequel, right? No, of course not. These sequels would only appeal to those who played the original and enjoyed it. We feel defiled to have our favourite games carried on by someone who cannot properly mimic the character's personalities.
In general, most FF sequels are very, very poor but rarely get as far as the demo stage. Anyone making one will have a very hard time getting them accepted in the community; their shortcomings are often impossible to avoid.
There is another kind of Final Fantasy fangame that crops up and that's those set in a completely different world, like a Final Fantasy 6.5 or something. Once again, in most cases these are newbish works and fail. But every once in a while one comes along with some potential. Naturally, it will get a hard time because the creator has gone to all the trouble of using original graphics, CMS, CBS and some rather fancy mapping but then they add in chocobos and slap FF on their title. Why? Why on earth would you do that? Thinking about it, I have only played one decent FF fangame, Blackmoon Prophecies by UPRC of Gaming World, and that's only a demo and isn't going to be finished.
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nanotechmonkey
RPG Townie
First you get the monkey, then you get the drugs
Posts: 22
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Post by nanotechmonkey on Jul 13, 2004 9:54:47 GMT -5
Yeah good point. But some people may choose to do a sequel because there is already a background story which doesn't need to be designed. Yes they may have just stuck chocobos in it and the name but this could well be because they have an ideand cannot express it to others so they show others how they envisage things happen. This is similar to fanart and fan fiction as these are not usually up to the same quality as the original and are just someone else's perception of the ending of a game.
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Post by Busterman Zero on Jul 13, 2004 10:07:04 GMT -5
There's a difference. FF7 fangames usually utterly destroy the original plot. Fan art, not so much. Fan fiction does from time to time.
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Maxy
RPG Townie
Posts: 187
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Post by Maxy on Jul 13, 2004 10:28:11 GMT -5
The problem is no-one really cares how someone else envisioned the after-events of a game. The plot is ended in the game where it is to give a certain feeling of how it is going to continue, as it were, that is part of the magic.
What you are really asking is whether you can get away with a Final Fantasy sequel because you cannot come up with a plot of your own. That's an unusual set of circumstances - FF fangame makers usually make them because they consider themselves the biggest FF fan in the world, worthy of working for Square (a true fan would leave the games where they are). As I said, your game will not be well received.
There is an alternative though. You can translate a story into RPG Maker. For instance, Shakespeare's plays have been re-interpreted into many, many movies; just take the skeleton of one of your favourite books, the core message of it and then transfer it to a setting you like. Most of us amateur game makers are inspired by films or books we have read, myself included, and that leads us to our plot. My game has about 20 different sources for its story line.
Rather than rush into a Final Fantasy game take your time over a story.
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nanotechmonkey
RPG Townie
First you get the monkey, then you get the drugs
Posts: 22
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Post by nanotechmonkey on Jul 13, 2004 10:59:07 GMT -5
Yeah that is good. I tried it with noughts and crosses and got quite far. Y'never know, I may start it up again as it was very simple and rewarding to do. Problem was mine was more of an interactive movie. But a good graphic movie as seen as I used tons of pictures. Maybe RMXP as that can have higher quality pictures...
Anyway I digress. I'm of the opinion that if done right and with good graphics FF sequels are OK. Eg: FF7 could be made with those FF6 edit characters or some other character sets that I have seen which were made from scratch and reflect FF7's style.
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Post by The~Inquisitor on Jul 13, 2004 11:16:57 GMT -5
That's a nice long post you've made. Didn't you think to bother expressing your own views?
Now let's see here...what makes an FF7 sequel bad...
Sound and Music
First off you have said sound. I don't know what you are saying here, most sounds would be original for a fangame since any newbie fanboy creator would be far too bone-idle to rip any sounds from Final Fantasy VII. However, he may think it incredibly shrewd to use FF7 sound effects in an FF7 sequel! If this is the case, he would merely run around every forum in the game making community he is involved in and request the sound effects. Then, perhaps a few minutes later he will conjure up the sense to actually search for the files he would need. Most newbies, of course, fail to find the files they need and therefore don't bother with sound effects which means that their score in that area will instantly be a zero. Music can be included as a sound effect. Perhaps this can improve Mr McNewbie's™ SE score? Nope. He will choose...wait for it...musics from Final Fantasy 7! Mmmm very innovative. "Oh well", he thinks, "0/10 isn't bad as long as I like it." Of course, this fanboy seems to miss the fact that the whole point he posts about it is to see what others think or possibly infest a community with the Fangame Bug™. BUT WAIT! Another idea has popped into the creators head! How about throwing in some Final Fantasy 8 music because they're coooool. Let's not forget the voice acting of course. Each fanboy has supposedly hired an entire cast for his/her project. With such a huge budget on this FF project, it must surely be amazing.
To come along story short, the music in an FF7 fangame is a joke.
The Graphics
I once heard a person say that he was going to make a Final Fantasy VII sequel with the same quality graphics as the original game itself. I was very impressed until he cancelled his project and claimed there was a computer problem! Golly gosh! If only I could remember his name, eh Nano?
The more astute fanboy tends to use 2D graphics, poor 2D graphics. We'd see a lil' Cloud, a lil' Tifa and quite possibly a lil' Squall wandering over the vast empty regions of Gaia (Or possibly Terra). If the Final Fantasy sequel is made in RM2K3, which I'm picturing when I say all this, then you can expect the mapping to be insufferable as usual. Midgar, this will still be a bustling city with many Mako reactors and President Shinra still calling the shots (Note you said sequel, not prequel), will comprise of Don Miguel’s addition to the RM2K RTP (the future chipsets). Thus the score of an FF7 fangame in the graphics department will be zero out of ten. Don't threat though, another zero is only a minor setback, I'm sure all the sequels are brilliant and true to the original story. The game will be littered with fantastic avis, which funnily enough bear a certain resemblance to those in the original game. Some might think that the story is repeating itself, or perhaps the game is stock piled with worthless scenes as the game is just a thorough re-telling of Cloud's magnificent quest to save the world. Of course, we could just buy the original if we wanted that.
To come along story short, the graphics would suck.
The Plot
Gee wiz, this one is always a classic. The possible storylines of an FF7 sequel: 1) PEPSIROTH IS BACK! KILL HIM!!!!!!1
2) After seeing Holy and the lifestream put an end to meteor, the crew of the Highwind decided to put their feet up, light up some cigars, puff a few joints (I'm looking at YOOOOUU Barret) and go on a pleasure cruise around the world of gaia. True, they have already seen the entire world by travelling through the darkest caves, the hottest deserts, the coldest mountains, the ugliest themeparks, the smokiest cities and a chocobo ranch just to find some usless crap to piddle about with (Ooh, a guidebook) but there is nothing like the beaches Costa Del Sol for Cloud, Tifa and the newly revived Aeris to relax on. But just as suddenly, there was a huge crash, a blinding flash of light and the airship started to plummet into the city of Lindblum! After emerging from the wreckage, Zidane popped around the corner and introduced himself. But beware, if Aeris is back, why not Sephiroth too? Or why not Kuja? (Forget about him reforming, it wasn't important) ...and so begins a brand new adventure for the hero's of FF7 and FF9...and lets throw Squall in, but not Ultimecia because she sucks.
3) After the wedding (Cloud and Cait Sith's - don't ask, just play the game. The reason may be revealed by the end of the game) a new Weapon has been sighted roaming the world. God knows how people managed to notice the 60ft tall beast with feet which shake the ground everytime it moves, but they did. Who do they call in to deal with the problem? ...Johhny New Character! ... ... ...just kidding. It's got to be the original characters since the fanboy must eradicate all forms of originality for his project. Of course, even though you have defeated all of the other Weapons, destroyed Jenova controlling them and slaughtered Sephiroth in a one on one duel, this Weapon is much stronger and you will have to do all sorts of crazy stuff to be able to beat him, especially since the characters have stopped training and all there stats are reset to weakling levels.
4) Oh wait, there isn't a four.
After careful thought, I'd probably give the storyline a zero out of ten.
To come along story short, the plot of FF7 sequels suck.
The Dialogue
As much as I enjoy Clod's adventures through the lands, the dialogue makes the game quite difficult to fathom. If you can find a Final Fantasy fangame which doesn't have a single grammatical mistake in it, I will be impressed. Then again, if you find a Final Fantasy fangame which doesn't have a single mistake on each line, I will still be impressed. Mr McNewbie's™ project would normally consist of several character names spelt incorrectly. Here are some examples:
Cloud - Clod, Cluod, Kloud, Clou Tifa - Tfia, That one with the breasts Aeris - Airis, Earis Barret - Barret. Most people can spell this. Cid - I hope there are no spelling errors here. He's only in every FF game and a three letter word. Red XIII - Red XI...uh...13, Red XI...uh...Nanaki, Red VIII Yuffie - Yufie Vincent - Vinsent Cait Sith - That's normally spelt right. Sephiroth - Sehpiroth, Sepiroth
The dialogue, since the character names aren't even consistant, is likely to only score zero out of ten.
To come along story short, the dialogue would suck.
The Battles
I take it you mean the systems, since the battle system would be included in this. Well the systems in a fangame would be the default systems of the game maker. No matter how much we are assured that there will be a materia system, it will still be the default system. Some newbies may go one up and change the name of some spells from "Lightning" to "Bolt". To make their battles look extra special, some newbies might even be willing to improve the graphics on their game by downloading nothing and going onto a forum and begging someone to do the summons for them. Of course, when no one offers to help they will get in a strop and quite possibly quit their project and defy the world of their wonderful Sephiroth's Revenge™.
Newbies will even change the names of items to things like Phoenix Down so that the gamer is aware that the project that enduring is none other than a Final Fantasy 7 sequel.
At least one battle in the fangame will use the One Winged Angel theme. Mmmm, I know it's a popular theme, but the flaming song is about Sephiroth so why do newbies insist on using it? (Especially if they are trying, but not succeeding, to avoid using Sephiroth) After seeing a pathetic attempt to make original systems (I mean who has ever heard of materia before?) I'd have to give these systems a nice zero out of ten. Hey, no sweat, fanboys, you can still score points on the character developement.
To come along story short, the systems would suck.
The Character Developement
Since the characters have already been developed in the original Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy 8 and Final Fantasy 9 there is not much Mr McNewbie™ can add on. So what he does is merely tell a story and ignore the characters, for example: "We must fight Weapon." "Ok." "Let's go." "You will die, Weapon." "Good." "Grrrr."
That small scene shows the bland characters that are in fangame sequels. Why are they so bland? Simple! The creator didn't really understand the character developement in FF7, nor does (s)he understand the basics of making a stupendous project. (or a below average one for that matter) The creator has a wide range of people that could be used from all sorts of computer games (or films) as long as the story doesn't make any sense. Of course, they can never under any circumstances attempt to create their own characters. That defeats the whole point of a fangame! After a careful review of fangame characters (by pretty much replaying Final Fantasy 7 and dumbing down my good impression of the characters) I'd have to give them a 1 out of 10. The one point is because you've at least used their correct names...well, if you don't count the spelling errors.
As you can see, fangames simply don't work. They just plain suck. No matter how 1337 the creator believes them to be and no matter how good the quality of the game, they will never ever achieve a mediocre grade or better. All of these areas together contribute to the hideous projects that taint the game making community.
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Post by Magi on Jul 13, 2004 11:22:37 GMT -5
Well, in the end it would just be too much to deal with. Even if you were skilled enough to make your own pre-rendered backdrops, why would you want their beauty ruined by 256 color limitations in rm2k/3? Furthermore, the collision detections in the Maker series are absolutely horrendous. They fit for any 2-d game, but from time to time I have seen people use pre-rendered back drops. I think it's an overall bad idea.
I'd like to also add on what Maxy pointed out earlier. The experienced members of the community do often find inspiration from their favorite literature, and I know I have done so in the past. There's also more. Many of them (like myself) look to human history for inspiration on anything from character names, to location concepts; and in some cases storyline ideas are drawn from history.
Well now if inspiration is so great, why can't the ending of FFVII inspire someone to make their own? Well, I think Maxy handled the nitty-gritty details, but there's more than just that. Chances are the average gamer has played or even heard of FFVII and know much about what happened in it, but how many of those gamers understand what 'sephiroth' really is? Someone could easily research this for us (Use wikipedia hint, hint) and tell us the answer. Or I could explain that a Sephiroth was a part of the tree of life that was thought to be concepted by early jewish mysticism. Furthermore, it's also commonly grouped with the Daath, a segment on the tree of life that has to do more with arcana and witchcraft. Why it is grouped there after being mentioned as a mostly positive force, I'm not sure of.
As for this little (probably somewhat innacurate) history lesson, you're probably wondering what its significance is. If that's true, then my point is already made. Many people know a basis to a famous story, but only few do the research on the meaning behind it. You could theoretically do the same with any ancient civilization (Shang, Babylonian, Roman, to name a few) and dig up on historical segments that few know about to draw inspiration. That, is the magic of creating your own basis to a story. Taking something from a common ground that most people are familiar with requires less research and naturally appeals more to the novice game maker.
So in the end what do we know? Summed up in a short synopsis we have this: Newbie makers aren't willing to go the extra mile and create half-baked sequels to games that everybody knows and loves, automatically thinking that since it has Final Fantasy VII in the title, it must be great! Then we have the 'experienced amateur.' You may call this an oxymoron, but it is quite true to most of us. We will look for inspiration on uncommon grounds, where most people have little knowledge in. Square has done this numerous times, along with all the other popular companies that make RPGs. Suikoden, was heavily concepted on an old Chinese legend. I think that truly shows the power of deeper research than quickly slapped together fangames.
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Post by zumbum - The Screen Monster on Jul 13, 2004 11:29:16 GMT -5
In response to Inq's extremely long post, I have but one thing to say;
PLOT
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Post by Magi on Jul 13, 2004 11:36:05 GMT -5
By the way Inq, you did forget one newbie spelling of Sephiroth. SPHEROHT. Yes, I've seen that before.
That's generally true and what makes FFVII sequels so laughable. I have however, seen ones that have devoted much time to the concept of a sequel. In some cases, the sequel isn't a sequel at all, but a side-story happening during the events of FFVII and even a prequel. These ones are usually concepted by more talented individuals, but still never get past demo.
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Smaug
RPG Townie
INSERT COMMENT HERE.
Posts: 153
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Post by Smaug on Jul 13, 2004 13:01:36 GMT -5
Well, when you think of how there is gonna be a ff7 prelude coming out, but not on any system but a CELLPHONE!!! I think it's safe to say if someone were to take the same game, and remake it for rm2k3 or whatever I'd Play it, cuz I don't have a cellphone, but if you are to make a completely original game and slap ff on the end just for show I think it's stupid. But remakes of things like the cellphone issue would likely be a good idea. someone please do that. ;D
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Post by wowposter on Oct 31, 2008 18:50:29 GMT -5
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