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Post by theblakeman on Apr 27, 2004 21:49:08 GMT -5
After reading some of Voltaire's and Nietzsche's work, I have come to form soem opinions on the subject. Firstly, abortion... I feel that abortion should only be allowed for victims of rape. Anything consensual should not be taken back with the use of science. If they use a coat-hanger, I could care less, as that is as rigid and as primitive as any other way of destroying something in your body. It is my belief that technology slows the process of our evolution as well as it toys with the foundation and flow of nature itself. If someone has sexual intercourse, and made that decision on their own, and gets pregnant, they shouldlive with what they chose. For you see, the lusts and pleasures of the Id causes humans to indulge in acts that have the possibilty of ruining their lives. That lust is what makes us animals. The Id is the basis of desire, and with science the Id can be ignored when there are methods of erasing the decisions made under its influence. We as humans believe we are superior to animals, but the only real thing that caused our long surge of difference over time was the ability to communicate thoughts and ideas. Surely if a peathingy could speak, it would claim itself to be above all other animals by claiming its magnificent feathers as its "intelligence". Experimentation with genetics and trying to erase with our frailities with science is truly the way of the "devil". We tamper with nature, when we have no right to. We as animals are but a part of one giant flow, like an ocean, that is the universe. When someone dies in the middle of nowhere, their bodies are broken down into phosphorus, magnesium, iron, and other minerals and our flesh is devoured by bacteria and other life. The boy becomes one with the earth and is used to fertilize plantlife. Plants are eaten by animals and thsoe animals soon die and go through the same thing. We are but mere particles in this giant flow, and humanity ceases to evolve as a species when it disturbs the flow and allows us to cheat it, and yet we continue to grow as arrogant fools who would call ourselves "Gods". Technology has evolved too fast, but the human mind has not evolved enough to use it for anything but trying to prolong our inevitable demise. Before we can call ourselves anything but filthy animals, we must completely disembody the Id from our concious thought and sub-concious thought. Sadly, that is impossible as well, and so we use technology for things under influence from our Id. We want to indulge in the pleasures of life without a care about fulfilling things such as duties to society and completing our purpose as living things. ALL THESE THINGS SLOW US DOWN, SCIENCE IS THE TRUE DEVIL, AND NOT UNDER ANY SUPERSTITIOUS CONTEXT! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Magi on Apr 28, 2004 1:23:39 GMT -5
I'm going to comment a bit about your thoughts regarding genetics primarily, while maybe mentioning some other things along the way. Now, regarding genetics and our "need" to develop in this area.
It is our curiousities that drive our very existence, it is that which progresses us, and that which also divides us. There is no turning back on our times, the best we can do is live life according to our own ideals. Many of us right now disagree with our study of genetics, they say it isn't right to understand everything about our very makeup. While this may be true, certainly it cannot be a negative thing? While the issues of cloning I would stand firmly against, there are other things in the field of genetics that could benefit us so much.
It's quite a scary thing, us being on the verge of understanding the human genome. It's like opening a whole new can of worms. The question we should ask ourselves regarding genetics may not necessarily be, "is it right?" But, "Are we ready for it?"
Contrary to belief, we do not live in the safest of times. Though our world has taken on a higher level of order, the same evil and corruption that existed 3000 years ago exists within us today. If deep inside of each of us is still that desire and corruption, can we truly say we will ever be ready to enter a new age of science as dangerous as this?
Think about it, and I'll let you be the judge. Giving my last insights, I believe that if we witheld a state of perfect morality that this would be a bright era for everyone on the planet. Though... We are not perfect. We should not strive to make ourselves flawless when we are already flawed. We cannot become perfect, because we are not a perfection.
Do you see what I am getting at? I've really rambled on here, and it's usually when I contradict myself the most... I guess I'll just find out when I hear more replies.
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Post by SickAndWretched on Apr 28, 2004 15:18:21 GMT -5
I agree.. though often times if people don't have the money so its a bit more complex.
and for the most part its not science fault.. science is just a tool.. humanity has to except the fact it is the rout of all its problems. maybe not every being in the human race is at fault but most likely are in some way that they are completely unaware of. the world is grey.. nothing is really set in stone.. The road to advancement will have to be paved with a forgotten past.. but thats just my personal observation and there there is no such thing as "goodness" or "evilness" its all a preception or distortion of truth.. (and of course. I'm sure you know that there is no absolute truth excpet for the truth that there is no absolute truth).. everything is merely a tool and it all depends on how the individual uses it and such.
what's holding humanity back is not science but its really living in the past and only learning it and not learning from it.
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Post by theblakeman on Apr 28, 2004 19:21:33 GMT -5
I meant science being the devil as, the almighty temptation, the thought and temptation of the ability to alter what once could not be changed, that leads humans down the path to destruction. Science is a seduction, which is why philosophy is required to be learned if science is to be used in a regressive way.
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Post by SickAndWretched on Apr 28, 2004 21:59:08 GMT -5
well thats not true of all science.. like magi said its all from curiousity. well except most cosmeditic sceince.. I don't consider operations like lasek and having your stomach stapled cosmeditic. 'cause that actaully fixes heath problems.. but humanity does indeed to advance spiritually and mental.. though through science they're discovering more and more about the human spirit and such
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Maxy
RPG Townie
Posts: 187
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Post by Maxy on Apr 30, 2004 5:40:39 GMT -5
As always I disagree, but I am pleased this debate is a well written and thought out piece, so rare in this forum.
Personally I place science on a higher priority than morality. Morality is diverse, it has different meanings to different people. Abortion is the perfect example of this - in the western world, particularly in the more secular nations, abortion is accepted by the majority of the populations - to these people it does not conflict with their sense of morality.
Seperately, there are more practical implications of what you have covered. Rather than taking abortion into isolation, looking at the subject from only the parents' point of view, consider the social aspects. Unwanted children can be a great burden on everybody involved. Adoption is an alternative to abortion but it is very hard to find couples willing to adopt a child and rarer still for those couples to be accepted as fit to raise the child. There is a surplus of children up for adoption, it is not a practical substitute. Supposing the couple keep the child yet cannot afford it? The burden then falls on the rest of society - we are morally obligated to support, through benefits, those who succumbed to their lusts and pleasures. It is not as black and white as "you had sex now accept the responcibility!", there are more people involved than just the parents. Therein it returns to the question of morality.
Morality for me is rarely an issue - there are very few things that I find ethically repugnant - genetic research and even human cloning are not amongst these. It is true, as Blakeman said, that technology has slowed our natural evolution, even to the point that it does not occur any longer. Due to huge advances in medical science, natural selection is no longer applicable - many who would die of hereditary disorders now don't - but isn't this because of morality more than science? We want to save the lives of other human beings and science is the tool we're using - it is our morality that is causing us to defy nature. I would like to know where you stand on the subject of medical science, Blakeman, whether it has a negative effect on nature?
Contrary to my last statement, that technology removes natural evolution entirely from the human race, it is also technology that can allow us to evolve ourselves far more rapidly than nature ever could. The field of genetic research will result in the ability to completely remap one's DNA. Initially this will be merely to remove hereditary disorders, later to introduce genes which provide greater resistance to other diseases. Eventually, of course, we will have the choice of exactly how we wish our children to be. My personal belief on this subject is that it will become a reality in our lifetimes. This is evolution. Technology will advance us beyond anything nature could do for us. For me there is no reason why we should not do these things - we have the ability to do them and they would be beneficial to mankind, and as a species isn't that what we should be striving to do?
I do not subscribe to the believe in "nature", I consider it to merely an occurance than a process which has an end result. Your belief in natural progression is to believe in stagnation and even devolution. Human beings are a higher order of life but you wish us to return to from whence we came. Technology is our nature now and it should not be rejected simply because it is man-made.
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Post by theblakeman on Apr 30, 2004 13:52:08 GMT -5
All the points you raised further perpetuate the unnatural alteration of nature by man. It is not by moral standards that I dismiss things like science; rather, it is BEYOND morals that come into play. Science is the devil not in a personified sense, rather it is the ultimate temptation, as I said before. This tempatation can be used for selfish desires, such as altering genetics to prolong life. Science is the result of an accumulation of advanced ideas; we understand these ideas, but do we understand what they mean? Are we mentally MATURE enough to use these abilities in a sensible way? This is why philosophy is so important. To understand causality, and to base our decisions around positive outcomes to what we create. Here is an example: a teenager has the ability to have sexual intercourse, to reproduce, but at a young age, are they mentally prepared? Are they mentally prepared to cast away their innocence and enter "adulthood" so quickly and with out rational thought and consideration? Were we prepared for the outcome of the creation of nuclear weapons? The Cold War was that period of maturing that the world had to undergo before the threat of such power could be understood and dealt with maturely. But with all these new inventions and technological "progressions", are we able to grasp and understand their place in our lives, our reality, and the world itself? And with the power of communication, are we able to handle so much information being shared throughout the world at once? The information given with "good intention", and with intentions of harming our thought systems? Pollution, as well, is becoming out of hand due to the human desire for more and more. Money is thought of before the very thing that allows us to exist in the first place, we place our selfish desires before the logic. And this is because we are animals, still, only seperated by the ability to share our ideas that we consider so above everything else. With a general shunning of religious and philosophical ideas- and mind you, this is a totally seperate thing from shunning the superstition of religion- we no longer can evolve in the maturity of our minds, only in what we can create with them. And it is because of this that we will eventually lead ourselves into ruin due to a powerful tool, our brains, being misused by ourselves. The brain being misused by the brain.
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Post by celestialesper on Jul 19, 2004 8:53:33 GMT -5
One of the ways to seperate humans from animals is religion: (1) Catholics, as myself, don't have sex unless they are married and can accept a child. Thus, abortion never takes place and children are never unwanted. (2) People who have a child that are married, since they are married, are together forever and can raise the child in what they see best. As where 2 people who just had sex would either probably abort the child or not take care of him/her. Before I saw someone post on another forum the stupidest thing I ever saw. He completly broke the link between humans and animals and thought there never was one. He said: "Why can't we have sex before marrieage? I see animals do it and they don't get married!"
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