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Post by The Jacket on Nov 4, 2002 22:03:39 GMT -5
A few tips before we get started: - Keep confusion to a minimum for those who may not know what's going on. - Speak English. Plain English. - Do not flame, spam, or be a jerk. - If you are offended by this, there's one of the following wrong: 1) You're legally insane and in an asylum 2) You're under Holy Ghost conviction (Which ain't wrong)
Now, here we go:
- Do you believe in God? - Why or Why Not? - Anything else you may wish to add... : P
I believe in God. I am saved and a preacher. I believe because of the works I've seen Him do, his Holy Word, and His Grace. I am a fundamental independent baptist. It is my belief that those who do not believe and attempt to prove that God does not exist are trying to erase some sort of guilt or conviction they have for not acknoweledging their creator. I do believe that those who die without Christ go to Hell for eternity and suffer everlasting torment. But those who have Christ will be given everlasting life in Heaven. I don't think I left anything out...
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Tool 666
RPG Townie
Remember, we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion...
Posts: 130
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Post by Tool 666 on Nov 5, 2002 3:24:09 GMT -5
Ok. Lemme set the record straight.
I don't believe in God, because of the fact that i have no reason to believe in Him. You may say that because of this i have no reason NOT to beleive him. You're right. I don't. However, in this case, apathy suits me the best.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 5, 2002 6:11:06 GMT -5
I don't beileve in God, not because I'm trying to erase guilt, but simply because I find it more logical not to do so. I see no logic or proof of some Creator - Moreso I beileved we evolved from some little amoeba in a prehistoric pond and when we die it's Game Over - and live my life ready to die and know it's the end ;D
Sure, it'd be nice if we went someplace nice and cozy after our death - Wouldn't 'dat give j0o the warm fuzzies n stuffs? But I'm ready to be worm food - It's teh food chain n stuffs.
But anyway, no, I don't beileve in god, I'm a Strong Athiest - Until I see proof, I have no reason to beileve he exists, or may exist, or could exist, or whatever.
... Or she.
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Pat
RPG Townie
Posts: 254
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Post by Pat on Nov 5, 2002 9:12:48 GMT -5
i dont belive in god i just dont see any prove of his existence
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Post by The~Inquisitor on Nov 5, 2002 11:27:14 GMT -5
I don't believe in God.
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Post by Chickensoupcheese on Nov 5, 2002 14:43:03 GMT -5
I don't believe in God. Like Tool said, I have no reason for or against, so it's basically personal preference. The existence of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-whatever "other-worldy" being just seems to feel more like fiction than fact. The Ancient Greeks and Romans used to believe in lots of Gods: today, however, the majority of people today would probably say that their Gods and stories are nothing but Myths. Do you think that people'll be saying the same thing about us a couple of hundred years from now? (Providing the Earth isn't in a couple of billion pieces by then or something.)
There's also the fact that there's many different religions: the fact that people can't make up their minds what God is, or what the Gods are just goes further to show that people really don't have a clue whether one (or ones) really exist or not. There's also the fact that some Religions refuse to accept other Relgions, and can be very hostile towards other religions, be them minor or major events. What's with all this equality stuff, then? Surely we should all be living in peace with each other if just one God existed?
To sum up, seems more fiction, too much debate over what is seemingly one thing.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 5, 2002 14:50:27 GMT -5
I don't believe in the Christian god, and I find it unlikely that any God exists. It's all superstitious beliefs with nothing behind it - there's no more proof that the judeo-christian God exists than there is that Bob the Immortal Cow-God exists. In fact, it's MORE likely that Bob exists - at least he doesn't have a self-contradictory holy book.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 6, 2002 2:39:08 GMT -5
Most people, unless intelligent or open-minded, tend to be born into a religion - My mom explained it to me once herself (she's really a dumb Christian, no matter how much I may love her) she said "I'm a Christian because I was born a Christian.. if I was born a Jew, I'd be a Judaist" so I said "So, because your born a Christian, you beileve some person named Christ is the savior and if you don't beileve in him your going to hell, yet you also beileve that if you were born into another religion you'd be right just because you were born into it?" and she said yes.
I love my mom, but she's as stubborn as any Christian. At least she ADMITS shes stubborn - And she also admitted once she finds her religion unlogical but beileves it any way because it makes her feel good. Stubborn, but honest. That's probably the held beilef of alot of Christians nowadays.
One day in the distant future people will study Christian mythology and be laughing at us - I say us but I really mean you Christians - just like we laugh at the idea of the Greek / Roman Gods.
Ah well... Looks like there will be plenty of room for you and my Mom in Heaven, Jacket, 'cause according to your Love Book were all gunna be burning in Hell. Wee! ;D
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Nov 6, 2002 12:23:00 GMT -5
Which one? What do you define "God" as? If one says "a unie exists", the term is meaningless until you define what a "unie" is. A) The term has never been completely, nor coherently defined. B) There is no credible evidence for any religion. C) In most cases, especially Christianity, the few attributes theists assign to "God" are self-contradictory, which means such a thing could not exist. D) Many religions, especially Christianity, either explicitly or implicitly support divine command morality, which leads to barbaric atrocities (if you've read your Bible, Jacket, you'd be quite familiar with them). E) Theists have yet to show how their belief differs from a child believing in Santa Claus. F) Theists, for the most part, Christians, have yet to explain how their creationism model of the universe is falsifible, or how they can claim to be doing science when they have to appeal to magic (science encompasses the natural world, which is why science can never be used to discuss the supernatural, if it were to exist). G) Theists have yet to show how their belief would be falsifible, period. A belief that is non-falsifible cannot be tested, nor proven true or false. H) The Burden of Proof rests with the theist to prove God, *AFTER* they coherently and completely define it. If no evidence is forthcoming, then the atheist has nothing to be concerned about. It's not the job of the atheist to "disprove God". Basic atheism is simply the lack of belief in God(s). Strong atheism is the actual claim that God(s) do not exist. The only way to refute atheism is to prove theism. I hope you decide to first, define what you mean by "God", Jacket, and then explain how your belief is falsifible, then, prove rational arguments that support belief in Christianity. The first two steps are absolutely necessary, so I would expect you to do them. Please note that if you cannot say how your belief is falsifible, you are beyond rational discourse. This eliminates any possibility of having a real discussion with you. So hopefully you'll realize the necessity of explaining what would falsify your belief. In addition, emotionalism and logical fallacies are not evidence. I've seen you use these in the past, and I'm asking you nicely to refrain from using them. They won't get you anywhere, for one (because I will point them out, explain why they're a fallacy, and provide a counterexample which exposes the fallacy), and second, one cannot have rational discourse with one who doesn't argue rationally. Last I remember, people do not literally see Yahweh walking around doing things, except Moses, and he couldn't see Yahweh's face. If you're just attributing things that happen to you to Yahweh, then that's no better than attributing events to Krishna, and then exclaiming Krishna is real. Oh, and next time you see Yahweh doing works, pull out your camera and take a picture. Perhaps you'll have some evidence, for a change. In regards to the Bible, perhaps you have a higher opinion of rape, genocide, slavery, hate, fear, guilt, and so on that the Bible presents. Not to mention the numerous contradictions (before you ask for such, define contradiction, Jacket, so that I know that you know what a contradiction is), vulgarities, and that Christianity basically boils down to self-interest. Though I suppose I will ask: Do you believe the Bible inerrant?
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Nov 6, 2002 12:24:24 GMT -5
Apologies for the double post. I had to divide my reply into 2-parts to address everything, as there is a 5000 characters limit. Shall I burst out laughing now, Jacket? Before I deal with this lovely ad hominem, I should remind you that your original post does ask not to flame. Did your own words slip your mind at the time? Note that just because you have this belief, does not give you the right to type it up. I may believe that you're an ugly git (which I don't), but that does not give me the right to say "Jacket, you're an ugly git". Just like trying to begin a rational discussion with people, and then saying "Anyone who doesn't share my belief is emotionally disturbed" is not what is typical of rational discussion. It is a fallacy, so kindly refrain from ad hominem argumentation. Now, let's examine your train of thought. Firstly, I have no such guilt, and the same is true of the main others who have posted. Naturally, though, I doubt you'll listen to us on the matter. I really doubt you'll accept any evidence that shows yourself wrong on the matter. Secondly, you disbelieve in over 4000 other Gods. The only difference between you and the rest of us Jacket is that we disbelieve in one more than you do. Third, you don't provide evidence for your claims. How surprising! Fourth, as there is yet to be any evidence of "God", there is no reason to believe. If I say Bob the Cow is real, are you simply going to take me at my word and become a Bobist, or are you going to ask for evidence? Fifth, your entire claim is a double-edged sword. A Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, and so on can easily say the same about YOU. This claim is empty and gets you nowhere. A good reason not to use theological insults. Most interesting indeed! The only things you left out are what's explicitly left out. You've implied from this bit that: A) Eternal torture is morally justified. B) That self-interest and fear plays a very big part in Christianity. C) That people are good because they fear punishment, rather than any respect for rules. D) That morality is arbitrary. It's a pity you support such, Jacket. However, I do ask that you address the points I raised, and PROVIDE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE. Leave the fallacies and emotional pleading at home. If you begin to say you lack the time to keep up with the conversation, like you did on your own forum, then shame on you for starting this at all. I presume you're familiar with the phrase "Don't start what you can't finish?" That's the basic atheist position, Paul. A strong atheist is one who actually claims "God x does not exist." I'm a strong atheist to a degree, in the sense that if one shows "God" is self-contradictory, it doesn't exist. How nice that Christians have made their god such. Amoon, Brother C!! :-D
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Post by Suikodenmad2003 on Nov 6, 2002 13:56:34 GMT -5
My viewpoint is a little weird, but here goes. I do not believe in 'God', although I firmly believe in some kind of afterlife (not necessarily 'heaven' or whichever equivalent). I don't like to say that I've seen proof of this, although I have seen things than can't be explained. The reason I don't believe in God is the 'worship me or burn for eternity' notion. I find it ridiculous to believe that a so-called God of love could have such a callous view.
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Tool 666
RPG Townie
Remember, we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion...
Posts: 130
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Post by Tool 666 on Nov 6, 2002 17:05:11 GMT -5
It's funny when Sleepy nukes a topic with a sustained response....
Well done, I say!
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Post by The Jacket on Nov 6, 2002 17:44:45 GMT -5
I said God. Not "a god." If someone got on this thread and said "Do you believe in Allah?" - You would know what they meant. When I say God, you already know my belief so someone as "logical" as you should know what is implied by "God."
Now, please bring about some of these "flaws and contradictions" if you will.
Surely this time you will go beyond threatening to do so and actually get down to it? Or do you have any at all?
If you'll make your way back to The Jacket's Revolution you'll see that I have already done so. Why, you may ask do I not just define it again? Because I want to make it evident that I am almost sure that you will bring something up I have already addressed.
I have to go to my grandmothers and then to church - I'll request that you do not counter address and give me ample time to continue my response.
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Post by PaulC on Nov 6, 2002 20:07:45 GMT -5
Suikodenmad; I call it the fear factor. It's easier to beileve in something when you beileve that if you don't beileve it your gunna die. Heh.
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Post by SleepyTemplar on Nov 6, 2002 20:09:35 GMT -5
I do apologize that I must go against your request, but you have either not read the bulk of my post, or didn't understand it. In order to prevent you from going along a tangent that will lead nowhere, I will kindly point out some problems.
As I said previously, define "God". If one says a "unie" exists, one cannot ask for proof until one is sure what a unie is- it is a meaningless term until defined. So, if you refer to the Christian god, please define what it is. You have not done so.
Also, I should point out that saying Allah, one may understand that one refers to the Muslim god, yet this does not define what God, in this case, Allah, is. So, *YOU* must define the Christian god is so that we can even begin discussing. Failure to do so on your part means your arguing a cognitively empty term.
I kindly demonstrating the faulty ad hominem you used, and provided a counter-example as to why it is a fallacy. If you even read my posts on your forum, you'd be quite aware that I rebutted your posts with various bits of evidence. If you did not read my post, I suggest you do so. If you do not understand what the ad hominem fallacy is, I will kindly explain it again to you. And if you haven't paid attention, how can I help it if you haven't noticed my rebuttals?
I should also point out in regards to your second question that that is what I am asking of YOU. I do not need to do anything if you cannot prove Christianity. I do hope you read about the burden of proof, but your hastily composed post suggests otherwise. Regardless, you must first define "God", explain what you mean by it, then explain how your belief is falsifible, THEN move on to present evidence for it. Otherwise, you've violated how rational discussion goes, and you have nothing.
Actually, it is YOU who should go back to your forum and read my response to you. You had a wrong definition of contradiction- I had to correct you, and kindly explained why it was wrong, what the real one was, and how it works. You never acknowledged it. So, to make sure you know what a contradiction is (because you didn't the first time, and it's dubious as to whether you read my response to your faulty definition in the first place), please define it. Once I know that you know what a contradiction is, then I'll kindly present contradictions for you.
Define contradiction, so that I know that you know what it is, and you'll get them to your heart's content, and the explanations as to why they are contradictions.
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